Life by Nate

System of a Down interviews

Nate — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:58:52 +0000

Here it is… my confession. For all the contemplative, Celtic, Sacred Music I listen to, I have to say that it is equally balanced by System of a Down. There is no band that does what these guys do. It’s brilliant.

To really understand who they are it is helpful to watch interviews that they have done over the years. Now there are some pretty messed up interviews as people try to box them in and get definitions out of them that are not there originally.

But to see someone interview them who really understand where they are coming from is a beautiful thing. If you can get past the crassness and the language… there is so much truth in this video series… so much depth…

What the Bible says about itself

Nate — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:25:29 +0000

The notion that I am addressing (per Erik’s comment) is

that the bible does claim inerrancy/infallibility–or at the very least teaches principles which require and imply them. Ps 19:7, Prov 30:5, 2 Tim 3:16,17 are good places to start.

Let’s look at these references (including some of the verses around them):

Psalm 19:7 –

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.

3 They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.

4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,

5 which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.

6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes.

This is a beautiful example! Let’s note that David wrote this, so the only scripture (which it doesn’t say anything about) that he knew was the Pentateuch… the law that was given the Hebrew people. David only notes that the “law” is perfect and refreshing. I wonder if his notion of perfect would be what we mean by perfect… or if it means inerrant (without error… see post on definitions)? He also says that the statutes of the Lord are to be trusted. Ok, I definitely trust God. More than anything else, I think it is important to note that he leads up each statement with feelings… leading me to think that he is not focused on facts at all.

And here is something that fully explains why I cannot see the Bible as completely fact, only that it was meant to say what the author meant it to say. David fully believed that the sun moved across the sky. Verses 1-6 clearly show that. But we know that it is not the case. If God wanted the Bible to be complete fact or he was telling the writers what to write, couldn’t he have just told them the sun stays in one place and saved us years of research? Beyond this, it seems to me that David is placing as much emphasis on the physical world as he is the “law” of God!

Proverbs 30:5 –

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Interestingly, this says nothing about scripture, the bible, or even the “law.” It is written by a guy named Agur, who we don’t even know exists… he is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. I struggle with using this as the bible claiming to be without error because it says nothing of the sort… and the proverbs seem to be a collection of wisdom sayings by various people, mainly Solomon. Every religion has collections of wisdom sayings which essentially could be interchangeable due to their similarity.

2 Tim 3:16,17

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that all God’s people ^[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I really like this reference… precisely because it tells us what the scripture should be used for, not because it says anything about it being inerrant or infallible. It is about action and purpose and pointing to Jesus rather than self-claims. First, the only scripture Paul and timothy had was the Hebrew scriptures. They did not save anyone… it was faith in Jesus that saved, but the scriptures helped in discovering the way Paul and Timothy were to be in order to follow in the way of Jesus. There is strong reference to example, community, and Jesus… but no claims of inerrancy or infallibility. It doesn’t seem like these were really issues that early Jesus followers really worried about. God-breathed does not mean inerrant.

The bible without error? I guess that depends…

Nate — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:42:56 +0000

Erik left a comment on one of my previous posts, which I want to reply to in a post… as I think it may serve to clarify or even raise some further conversation and questions. I also think it is important to say what difference this makes. (This is not a blog for simply spouting off doctrine | philosophy | knowledge. At the least, I hope there is conversation to be had. Personal is best.) Erik states that:

that the bible does claim inerrancy/infallibility–or at the very least teaches principles which require and imply them. Ps 19:7, Prov 30:5, 2 Tim 3:16,17 are good places to start.

So what I want to do is define what I mean by inerrancy and infallibility.

Inerrant: has no error. Many people take this to the extreme by saying that everything that the Bible says happened occurred exactly that way. We take it as a precise historical document of pure truth. Perhaps I could subscribe to inerrancy if it meant that the Bible states everything that the authors wanted to state.

Infallible: incapable of erring. This seems to me to give the Bible an authority in and of itself that says that no matter how anyone interprets it, it cannot possible be wrong. Since I believe that the Bible mainly has authority by means of God’s spirit and communities that interpret it, I struggle with this one. Maybe I could be ok with infallibility if it meant that it is incapable of meaning something different than what the authors intended it to mean. Since we consistently place our own biases on the authors and we can’t sit down and have a cup of coffee with any of them, this is pretty much impossible

Learn to differ and disagree well

Nate — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:34:09 +0000

I greatly appreciate this recent post from Brian McLaren’s blog:

I just received this today …

++++
Pastor Brian,

I want to apologize to you about some reviews that I put on www.amazon.com. After reading The Truth War by John MacArthur, I was alarmed by your works.

Recently, I put myself in your shoes and thought what it would be like for people to post things that are not favorable. I went and took my comments off.

I still am unsure of some of the comments that John MacArthur highlights, but am sincerely sorry for my actions.

Sincerely,

+++++

Here’s my reply (slightly edited for privacy’s sake) …

Dear … - I wanted to thank you for your kind and gracious note. I very rarely receive notes like this - I can’t tell you how encouraging it is to see brothers in Christ show this kind of humility and charity and brotherliness. Thank you.

I’ve had some private contact with the author you mentioned. He and I do indeed have some deep and sincere disagreements. Although I feel that he misrepresents me on a number of counts, I certainly respect his right and responsibility to express his concerns as he sees fit. My wish would be that Christians could learn to differ and disagree well … which would involve accurately representing one another’s views, not overstating them, not hastily resorting to inflammatory or vilifying language, and always practicing the “golden rule” - which is what you have done so beautifully in this situation.

So, please be assured of my respect for you and my gratitude too. I hope you’ll keep me in your prayers, and again, thanks.
Warmly, in Christ,
Brian
+++++

May we all learn from this brother’s beautiful example.

Detailed review of the Church Basement Roadshow

Nate — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:02:49 +0000

Ben’s not a fan, but he has some interesting points… many I disagree with, though His blog entry can be found HERE.

My own statement of emergent is here… can we talk about these things in person, please? I can’t emphasize that enough.

It is so interesting to me what people’s thoughts are as it doesn’t seem like many of the things that we emergents stand for are all that nonsensical. I mean, yes, they are a bit different than some of the “orthodoxy” in the last… oh, 1000 years. But historically, I’m not so sure. It seems to me that things like “innerancy” and “infallible” are not things that the bible claims for itself, or that Christians really claimed until Luther. If this is the case, and Luther and some of our other church fathers (because indeed it was men who called the shots) marked changes in orthodoxy, who’s to say that changes still don’t take place?

Good things to be in conversation about… personally. It would be really good to meet anyone from Bend who would like to talk more.

Spiritual leadership in our culture today

Nate — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:27:28 +0000

It’s been a while since I’ve posted anything that is my own. This is primarily due, I think, to the vast amount of processing I’ve been doing myself. Personal journaling and lots of thinking. One thing that has been on my mind lately is the extent that spiritual leadership goes to here in the west.

Ultimately, what I long to be is a spiritual leader, a guide… a shepherd. When I think of spiritual leadership and how it has taken shape in much of our world, especially in the East, I see leaders who have earned their leadership by “walking through the fire.” They have done the work… they have proved themselves to have wisdom, insight, and an ear for the spirit. Some of them end up blind, crippled… far from the flashy appearance we see from many of our leaders here in the West. They have sacrificed greatly for what they now have. People choose to follow them because their lives are changed.

My understanding of spiritual leadership comes mostly from within the Christian tradition, so I will focus there. When I look of the evangelical side of things, I see a strong passion for theology and “heady” stuff. It seems to me that as long as a pastor has had the seminary training, as long as he knows his Greek and his Hebrew, as long as he can give an extensive interpretation for the “right” way to read the Bible… he is ok in his church’s eyes. It comes down to education, seminary, and the ability to give complicated answers. He is the “professional” truth-teller.

Within the mainline tradition, there is less an emphasis on right doctrine and much more of a passion for polity, or “how we do stuff.” The structure is much more important than making sure that we all agree on the right theology. It seems that often a minister|leader in a mainline church just has to be a good upholder of the practices. If he/she can hold a good Sunday morning service, everyone is happy. As long as a minister sticks within the traditional structure no one will get upset. Even better if there is a good measure of energy within the structure of the church.

Holding both of these sides together is the authority that is given via titles, education, degrees, and higher authorities. As long as you earn it by going through the system, you may be deemed as one who has authority. Doctorate, Masters of Divinity, PhD, ordained… with a score card that has one (or all) of these, who can question the authority of the person in charge?

There must be something more than this. The question remains as to what it looks like and who, of those looking for some kind of leadership, desire something more? Is there a place in our individualized western world, that loves success and title, for a different kind of leader? I hope so… I really do.

Thoughts from the roadshow guys themselves

Nate — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:45:39 +0000

While the roadshow is a lot of laughs, a lot of character personas, and some singing as well it really comes down to this… as Tony says:

the point is deadly serious. We think that the church — even Christianity — needs an overhaul. Although we begin and end the show as 1908 revivalists, the bulk of the 90 minute show is our three monologues in which we each deliver a message about which we are passionate. In a nutshell, Doug [Pagitt] says that each of us is just as responsible for the faith we proclaim as any theologian or saint who has gone before us, I [Tony Jones] confess to be enamored of the idea of Christianity at the expense of Jesus, and Mark [Scandrette] calls us to love others regardless of the pay-off.

Good stuff here, and they’re rollin’ into Bend, Oregon this coming Tuesday, June 24 7pm at First Presbyterian Church.

Article on Emergent Church in Bend Bulletin

Nate — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:56:15 +0000

Good stuff here. This came out in yesterday’s paper. For my own statement of why I am willing to call myself emergent, go HERE.

Emergent church tour to roll into Bend

By Alandra Johnson / The Bulletin

Published: June 17. 2008 4:00AM PST

Submitted photo

Leaders in the emerging Christianity movement, Tony Jones, from left, Mark Scandrette and Doug Pagitt, are travelling to Bend for a throwback revival-style event complete with songs and costumes, called the Church Basement Roadshow, on June 24.

If you go

What: Church Basement Roadshow, featuring Tony Jones, Doug Pagitt and Mark Scandrette
When: 7 to 9 p.m. June 24, doors 6:30 p.m.
Where: First Presbyterian Church, 230 N.E. Ninth St., Bend
Contact: 382-4401

Three of the biggest names in the emergent church movement will be heading to Bend for an inventive show next week. Rather than simply reading from their new books and answering questions, Tony Jones, Doug Pagitt and Mark Scandrette will transport the audience back 100 years. The Church Basement Roadshow, as the trio have dubbed the tour, includes revival-style music, costumes and characters, all based on events that transpired in 1908. The tour rolls into Bend on June 24 at the First Presbyterian Church (see “If you go” Page E6).

Jones said the idea is to bring the feel of tent revivals that took place a century ago, but infuse the event with their own message of hope and rethinking of Christianity.

Emerging Christianity is based on making religion more inclusive, with more input and integration between churchgoers and clergy, and with greater emphasis on Jesus’ life and teachings and less judgement about the way people behave.

Pagitt, Scandrette and Jones wanted to tour together to promote their new books (Jones’ “The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier,” Pagitt’s “A Christianity Worth Believing” and Scandrette’s “Soul Graffiti: Making a Life in the Way of Jesus”).

But they wanted their tour to be something different.

“Who wants to go and listen to three authors read books?” said Jones. A friend offered to lend them a RV that runs on biodiesel and they began to brainstorm.

The trio researched 1908 and discovered that traveling preacher Billy Sunday, with his white seersucker suits and rhetorical schtick, was the most recognized person in the U.S. The more they learned, the more they thought: “Well, this would be fun.” Their tour will include preaching, singing and old-time costumes that recall the passion, cadence and rhythm of the tent revivals. Another inspiration is a quote from Thomas Edison from 1908, in which he said, “Anything, everything is possible.”

Jones thinks people today don’t have that same kind of optimism and hope.

While they will talk about some serious issues, Jones says the tour is supposed to be fun.

“We don’t take ourselves so seriously. We’re kind of goofballs,” said Jones. “We’re earnest, but also pretty ironic.”

This shows, too, in the basement tour idea. While Billy Graham fills stadiums, the three authors think it’s funny they will be filling church basements.

That said, the message is serious. Jones, Pagitt and Scandrette are all pretty tough on traditional clergy and the traditional idea of church. They see themselves as an alternative to the conservative Christian movement.

Jones believes something in Christianity is shifting.

“I think that we’re on the cusp of the next great reformation in the church.”

He sees great energy behind the effort as well as significant opposition to it, from those who support more traditional church models.

The First Presbyterian Church in Bend, which is hosting and sponsoring the event, is working to develop its own emergent church identity.

Bob Pearson, a member of the church, calls it a movement of the spirit that is “calling Christians into a new direction.”

Nate Bettger works for the church on the Connection Communities project. They have started several new events to highlight the emerging Christianity focus, including a monthly meeting at a local brewery. The meeting, dubbed the Shepherd and Knucklehead, includes people listening to music or stories and pondering one question for the evening, maybe “What is hope?” or “What does it mean to belong?” or “Who is in control, God, government, parents? And does it matter?”

Pearson describes it as the kind of experience one might have had as a college student, but that in regular lives people “don’t have the chance to just talk about questions of life.”

“A lot of churches, you can’t ask questions and that’s a big problem for young people,” said the 60-year-old Pearson.

Bettger says sees his mission as simple: “All I’m here to do is show people God loves them.”

They hope this loose structure and open acceptance will attract people who have fallen away from the church.

Critics refer to this kind of Christianity as moral relativism, but Bettger disagrees with this assessment.

“I look at Jesus and I don’t see moral relativism. He’s not judging people, I see him loving them.”

Bettger’s goal is to try to adhere to the teachings of Jesus, which he sees as being a peacemaker.

The Church Basement Roadshow will not be an outreach event for the church, but it will be a time for people to come in and check out some of the ideas behind the emergent church movement.

People can “get a sense of what the dialogue is like,” said Pearson.

Bettger hopes that those attending the roadshow will have a “great opportunity to feel a part of something bigger; an opportunity to feel connected.”

For more information about the Church Basement Roadshow, visit www.churchbasementroad show.com.

www.bendbulletin.com

Tony Jones and Company can’t run out of gas yet!!

Nate — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:50:15 +0000

Ok, this can’t be good. Hopefully they’ll make it to Bend on Tuesday, June 24 by 7:00 pm! Check this video!

The time between times

Nate — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:31:35 +0000

…It was the fullness of time that the ancient Celts grabbed on to when they talked about the “time between times.” I suppose in my own life, these are the most profound moments. The time between times was always at dawn and at dusk. They believed it was at these times that the veil between the spiritual world and the physical world (the Otherworld and ours) was at its thinnest. There was a deep mystery during these times… one that you could almost reach out and grab… that you could breathe.

Maybe you’ve experienced it yourself… it probably depends on whether you are a morning or a night person… for me it has been in the mornings. I used to go for walks in the morning when I was at college in MN. It was especially on the wet days… fog… drizzle… sometimes with the snow… a hush in the trees. The animals waking up. A rustle over there. A bird, unseen, up in the trees. Haunting almost. But very deep and old. It was during these moments that time seemed to stand still… and I moved through it. There are so many questions that this brings up for me.

What is it about these times… the waking up and the going down. The stirring and the settling in. The rising and the falling. Movement moments. How is it that that the Spirit of God seems so alive in these times? What does it tell me about my own life and when the most valuable moments are? What am I doing during these incredibly rich times? Am I tuning in or am I tuning out?