What does it mean to grow up in Christ and his love? It means we speak the truth in love, as I have sought to do.

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ… (Eph. 4:15)

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved (2 Thess. 2:9-10).

Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart… (1 Pet. 1:22)

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).

Gentlemen, I have said all that can be said. This is not about sides. This is about the truth that is right there on the pages of Scripture. I am available for further discussion, but this will be my last post here. I have too long neglected my studies.

Andrew

http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

It’s like two countries at war saying that God is on their side. It’s crazy! I don’t know the way around this, but it just feels messed up to me. Sad that it happens within the body of Christ. Talk about a confusing message for the world.

I am sure that Darren will say that he once held the faith as you define it but he grew out of it as he encountered the reality of the whole world and the varied views of God contained within it.

So as a parting perspective, I pray for you Andrew that you can grow beyond your current limited perspective on God and faith. Let a little daylight into your dark closed structures.

You asked earlier about what Love is and why this is my core view of God. Here is my favorite Biblical passage in response. May you also put aside childish view and become a true man of God loving all as Jesus/God first and always loves us:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I’m not defensive or angry. That is a red herring argument. I’m not using circular reasoning. The evidence does fit my presupposition, but that does not mean that it is necessarily wrong. I’ve laid my presuppositions out there for all to see in previous posts while meeting with resistance when trying to get the same courtesy from other conversants. My theology is God-centered and focuses on the truth of His Word, as opposed to the man-centered theology of the rest.

There are good reasons for taking certain evidence and leaving other so-called pieces of evidence. I’m not outright ignoring the evidence if I don’t buy someone’s conclusions. That is a false assumption on your part.

If we look at where and who the evidence is coming from, a lot of times we find a person’s presuppositions that mislead their conclusions. Most of the conclusions that certain canonical books were not written until later, or the named author wasn’t actually the author come from liberal sources. These arguments come from men and women who are rather poor scholars in many cases. Many of the claims are by people who deny that Christ is God, or even deny the existence of God. I don’t build my theology on the ideas of those who deny fundamentals of orthodox Christianity.

Would you build your view on the American economy from reading Karl Marx? Then why build your theology on ideas of those who are not orthodox? Might there be some truth in the assertions of liberal scholarship? Yes, there may be. That means we should listen closely, but discern everything for ourselves.

Would taking your position and getting rid of my “antiquated” views put me in the majority? Possibly so, but my goal is not to stand with the majority. I stand with Christ, who calls us to take the narrow road, for there is a broad road that leads to destruction. I stand “for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).”

I pray one day you too will find this faith.

Andrew

You come across as defensive and angry. And on top of that, you seem to have built yourself one massive circuit of circular reasoning. You take the evidence that fits your presupposition, and simply undermine or outright ignore that which doesn’t – calling it false for its supposedly “atheistic” underpinning.

Do you call this fair dialogue? If we simply choose evidence like we do food from a smorgasbord – taking what we want, leaving what we don’t – then almost any presupposition can be “supported”. But again, this is neither fair, nor accurate.

All I can say is that you are in the great minority on the issues we’ve discussed here at this blog. And there are fewer and fewer of you each and every day. No doubt you consider this some great Satanic conspiracy. But we call it just facing up to reality.

God still reigns supreme my friend. He is good, just and loving. Letting go of some of your antiquated assumptions isn’t going to change that fact.

I’m sure you’re ready to fire back with some frustrated retort, but maybe one day cooler heads will prevail.

The evidence actually leads most to believe that the books of Judges, the Torah, etc. were written before the exile. The Chronicles were post-exilic as were Nehemiah and Ezra. But that is apparent from the books. They don’t claim otherwise.

You know why some scholars say Daniel was written after Israel returned from exile? That is because these scholars assume that Daniel could not possibly have prophesied the rise of the Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires with such precision (including the prophecy that Alexander’s kingdom would be divided four ways upon his untimely death). This is due to the liberal presupposition that prophecy does not happen. The problem is, even if Daniel was written after the return from exile, Daniel prophecied that Christ would be crucified 483 years after the rebuilding of Jerusalem. If we do the math on the dates it is either the exact year of Christ’s crucifixion, or within 5 years!

The textual evidence is not nearly as strong on the liberal side as they lead people to believe. Not to mention, we really don’t know quite enough about Hebrew to lead us to conclude an exact date. I would suggest you read some of the other side of the argument. Remember, “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him (Prov. 18:17).”

Although the oral tradition was strong, so was the scribal tradition. There is no reason to conclude that books claiming pre-exilic origins or origins during the exile were not written down. Once again, much of the argument here comes from the liberal side, due to naturalistic and even atheistic presuppositions. Much of this scholarship has come out of Germany in the last 300 years since the rise of liberalism there under Schleiermacher.

Why are you so quick to undermine the books that are the basis of Christian faith?

Andrew

You say “Much of the Old Testament is historical narrative. It is written by people who often are there at the actual events. What is it that you think indicates any of this to be fiction? How do we and why should we separate the historical narrative of the Torah from the Creation account?”

This is patently not true. All major biblical scholars know that nearly all of the books of the old testament were first recorded years, even centuries after their supposed date of setting. Books like Daniel, Judges and Kings, Chronicles, etc. were all first recorded after the exile not before. They were most likely passed down via oral tradition since very few could read back then! There is much evidence in the books to support this as well as the forms of the Hebrew language used etc. If you do not agree to these facts then I am not sure what more evidence I can give you of the contextual nature of scripture.